[The Spectator released an interview conducted with Donald Trump by Ben Domenech on their website, in advance of the article in their April, 2025 edition. The transcript states at the top the interview was edited, but does not indicate what was edited. The following is presented with that caveat. The transcript was cross-checked for accuracy against the audio and lightly edited to correct transcription errors. Interview and audio courtesy and copyright The Spectator. Link: https://cqrc.al/the-spectator-20250227]
The change that you've done this time in terms of your approach, the speed is all anything -- that is the only thing people this time can talk about.
They can't believe it.
They can't believe it. You have put the fear of God into bureaucrats and Eurocrats so quickly.
Yeah.
And I just wonder, what is it that you learned from the last time around that maybe factored into how rapidly you started moving when you got back in?
So, the last time, first of all, I had never done it before. And then, all of a sudden, I'm standing in the White House, and they say, "Congratulations. You're president." Right? But I didn't know people in Washington. It was a big factor. So, I had to rely on people, and I got many good recommendations, but I got some that I wouldn't have ever used again if I had known.
So, I really got to know people, really, at a high level and under pressure. So, I always felt that if I could get back, I would have some great people, and you see the kind of people -- they're really good.
Well, the interesting thing about those people included in that, thank you so much, is last time around, the talk was about Trump's generals. This time around, from Mike Waltz to JD to Tulsi to Pete, they're all people who were making decisions on the battlefield, not in the boardroom.
That's right.
What factored into that generational shift in terms of the experience of the Iraq war and the like?
Yeah. It's very interesting. So, I was able to get people that were great. Like, I'd see Pete. I'd be interviewed by him. And what he wanted to talk about was military. In fact, whenever he called me, it was always to get somebody that was in trouble because he was too aggressive militarily out of a jail.
You know, I got numerous soldiers out of jails because they did what they were trained to do. The liberals within the military put them in jails. They teach him to be a soldier. They teach him to kill bad people, and when they kill bad people, they want to put them in jail for 30 years, OK? And Pete was really into that.
I always thought of him for that. I did. But I mean, honestly, Ben, it was just the fact that I've been here for four years under great pressure. But one of the big things is that if you think about it, when I was first elected, I had two jobs: to run the country and to survive. And it was vicious what they were doing.
Well, I mean, that survival, that path back is, you know -- and I said this on election night. I think it's the most incredible story in American political history. And I don't think that there are a lot of people who disagree with me on that. One lesson, though, is about the nature of how big that fight is. And I wondered if you had some historical perspective --
That fight was big. I mean, they were vicious, and they were cheaters.
You know, in 1960, Richard Nixon knew the election was stolen from him, and he made the decision to walk away. And then obviously, after Watergate, facing impeachment, etc., he chooses to walk away again. Is one of the lessons of history that you've got to just keep fighting, that you've got to keep fighting through this?
You've got to keep fighting. So, Richard Nixon was a different kind of a guy, and he was a tough cookie, and he was very smart. People don't realize how smart he was. But he made one bad decision. He didn't fight. I spoke to his family. They say he regretted that until the day he died. He didn't fight.
I don't think anybody's been surrounded by as many enemies as you other than him, perhaps.
Yeah. He had a lot. I might have had more.
You might have had more.
I actually might have had more. Don't forget, I went through two impeachments and probably 80 indictments, if you think, you know, with all the different charges.
Well, and trying to ruin you afterwards was something we had never seen before in terms of the American political system.
Yeah. I went through even civil cases. I still go through them, you know, where a woman I never -- I have no idea who this woman is. And judges that were so crooked, people that valued a home in Florida at $18 million when it's worth --
That was perhaps the most ridiculous.
Yeah, perhaps.
There were a lot of ridiculous ones.
Perhaps 100 times that amount. So many things. But I did. I went through a lot, but I tried not to -- I just put my head down and just did it.
Well, your toughness when you were in office is one of the reasons that we didn't see the Ukraine war happen. You sent the Javelins to the Ukrainians.
It would have never happened.
It never would have happened. I think without the weakness in Afghanistan, you know, we would not have seen Putin so --
I think it was the day that -- well, once I was out -- he would have never done it. I used to talk to him about it. I got along with him very well. I knew him very well. I used to tell him, "You can't do that. You're not going to do that." But, you know, you mentioned something that a lot of people forgot about.
So, when those tanks came in, it was over for Ukraine. And then they got stuck in the mud. They got stuck, actually. They couldn't get out. And if you remember, there's a statement: Obama gave them sheets, and Trump gave them Javelins. But I gave them the Javelins, and they used those Javelins.
They did, and the Ukrainians thank you for it.
And that changed the entire scope of the war because -- I was just talking about it today with the head of NATO. He said those tanks were going as fast as they could go right into Kyiv. You know, they were only 70 miles -- 79 miles out, 79. And they got sucked. And when they had those Javelins, man, it was -- and it really changed the whole course of the war.
I think the question on the minds of a lot of Americans and a lot of Ukrainians, a lot of other people is, how can the shape of this deal that needs to be made, first to stop the fighting and then to stop war, be something where, even when someone who's not as tough as you is sitting behind this desk someday, the Russians don't just roll back westward again?
It's very interesting. That whole war is so sad. The sad part of that war is it would have never happened. I mean, I tell you, as sure as you're sitting there, zero chance. I used to talk to Putin about it. "You can't do it, can't do it." And he and I had good understandings together. He's a tough guy. He's a smart guy.
Very smart. Very interesting. But he's a tough cookie. And there was no chance it could have happened. You're right about Afghanistan. But of course, Afghanistan wouldn't have happened either. It showed that he thought we were a paper tiger maybe for the first time ever. He was concerned with us, and then he thought we were a paper tiger.
It looked so bad. It was such an embarrassment, I think the most embarrassing, you know, period of time in the history of our country, actually. And you had a president that couldn't explain anything. He couldn't talk to anybody. And it was a disaster, the whole thing. That was a disaster. How about leaving them billions of dollars' worth of equipment?
Do you know they're the second or third most -- biggest seller of arms in the world right now? Because they're selling all the stuff that we gave them, brand-new, 777,000 rifles, 70,000 trucks, many of them armor-plated. Now, think of that. I don't know how they could have brought so much stuff there when you think of it, right?
Seventy-thousand trucks. Think of a used car lot. If you had 300 cars, it would be a massive company. But with all of that being said, the hardest part for me is to think that all of these kids are dying. This week, they're going to lose 2,000 guys. Now, they're Ukrainian. They're Russian. Ukrainian and Russian.
But you hate to see that. You know, it's human beings, right? And it's such a bad war, and it's such a vicious war. It's really a bad one. You know, it's a drone war. It's a whole new form of warfare that's taking place. It's actually terrible and sort of amazing. People are studying it. You know, the Koreans went in because they wanted to learn.
They learned the hard way. This was not good. They have suffered tremendous casualties.
Is the answer that the Europeans just need to step up?
Well, they have to step up, but they also have to get equipment. They have to spend more money. They don't have --
Are you willing to give them a friends-and-family deal if they start buying it from us?
Well, you mean for here?
For hardening themselves up to the degree that they --
Well, they're going to have to. Look, we -- you know, they give a lot of older equipment, things that they're not using anymore. We're giving them brand-new stuff. The bad part about the Biden thing is that Europe put up approximately $100 billion, and they get their money back. We have three times that amount, and we didn't get anything back.
Now, tomorrow, President Zelenskyy is coming. We're going to sign a rare earth deal because they have among the best rare earth in the world. You've heard that. And we'll, you know, we'll get our money back plus, and I feel better about it. But the biggest tragedy is the death. You know, the death is so bad.
I hate the money aspect of it, but I hate to see -- this week, they have over 2,000 casualties. This is in a week. They give me reports every week.
In terms of the British Royal Navy, I don't know if you know this, the entire personnel -- keep in mind, Royal Navy ruled the seas. You know, they ran the Empire. The entire British Navy force today could not fill the Naval Academy Stadium at Annapolis, the entire personnel. I mean, that's how far behind they are.
Their ships are old. Their equipment has not been kept up. And it's a real problem. So, how do we get that to change?
It is old. They all have old. You know, it just came up today. They wanted some ships in that war, and the Europeans have very old ships, ships that don't work, ships that are not functioning at all. They really don't have too much of a Navy situation. Probably, the best is U.K., but, you know, it's in need of help.
He just left, you know.
Yes, the new prime minister. What did you think of him?
He's very -- I mean, I have to say -- well, he was very nice. You know, we had a very good meeting.
He's a little different than Boris.
He's different. Different type, yeah. Did you watch it? Did you see it?
Yes, I did.
What did you think? What was your impression?
Well, I agreed with your assessment that his voice is quite impressive.
It's good. No, right? I said, "That's a beautiful voice. Beautiful." The whole thing, you know, highly --
But the problem is that he runs -- and your vice president obviously eloquently pointed this out in Munich. He runs a nation now that is removing the security elements on Apple phones so that they can --
Yeah. We told them, "You can't do this."
Yeah. Tulsi, I saw --
We actually told them. That's incredible. That's something, you know, that you hear about with China.
They put people in jail in Britain for praying in their own homes, silently.
Yeah. But you were having that with Biden, too, if you think. And it's not Biden. It was the people that surrounded this desk. No, actually, this desk is a different desk.
Yes, it's a different desk. I was going to --
The other one comes back. It just was in need of a little refurbishment. So, anyway -- so did you see this? You've been -- how often have you been in this office?
So, I was in this office with every president, except for Biden. In fact, I got an interview with somebody. That's how old I am in terms of politics.
So, you started when?
Bill Clinton era.
That's not old.
Well, it's older than your vice president.
Yeah. Well, that's true. He's doing a good job if you take a look at this. He had like two pictures up, and he couldn't tell you who they were. And now, you look. And, you know, we took them out of the vaults. We have incredible vaults of things. They have 3,900 paintings.
Do they inspire you, or do they intimidate, in a way, just to see all the different --
Well, it's great. I mean, look, George Washington back there and Thomas Jefferson. They're great. I even have an FDR up there. A lot of people say, "Why do you have FDR?" I said, "Well, he was a serious president, whether you agree with him or not."
Yeah, absolutely.
He was definitely serious, right?
A hundred percent.
And so, it's good.
The Starmer interactions, I'm just curious if there was anything that came out of them that you feel particularly positive about in terms of --
I thought he was -- I will say, you know, I know where he comes from, from a political standpoint, right? I was surprised we got along very well. I mean, it was actually -- we had a lunch that ended up being longer than we thought. That's always a good sign, you know, longer in the sense that we got along.
I thought he was very good. I met him twice before. You know, he came to see me twice before, but this time was the best. And I think we got along very well. And you want to keep that relationship with them. But you're right. Their policies are changing. You know, I have a lot of property over there as a real estate person.
I own Turnberry, which is a big deal, and I own in Aberdeen, and I own in Ireland, a great thing on the ocean, beautiful thing, beautiful club and a hotel. And they're doing well. You know, the reason the country is doing well from that standpoint is because the dollar is forcing people to leave the country.
You know, our dollar valuation is forcing people to leave the country.
He clearly made a decision early on that he needed to get to know you. But that's not been the attitude of some of these other left-center politicians. Chrystia Freeland up in Canada was doing a debate. She's trying to lead the Liberal Party up there now into this election. And she said that there needs to be a nuclear alliance with other European nations and Japan against the United States because you're predatory.
She's terrible. I'll tell you what. I know her very well.
I'm sorry.
I know. No, I know her very well. She's absolutely terrible for the country. She's incompetent in many respects and can only cause ill will for Canada. In fact, Governor Trudeau understood that. I call him Gov. Governor Trudeau understood that. And he actually fired her because of a meeting he had with me. I said, "She is so bad." She's bad for the country.
You know, if she were talented -- I know people that are sort of bad people, but they do a good job running a country. Who's going to get the nomination, do you think?
I don't know. After that debate, they all seemed -- she was the nuttiest, but they all seemed pretty nutty to me.
She's a whack.
The Conservatives obviously have taken a hit in the polls since some of the comments that you've made that the Liberals have leaned into. Do you think that they're still going to be able to pull it out up there?
Well, I think his biggest problem is he's not a MAGA guy, you know? I mean, he's really not. He's not a Trump guy at all.
He's more of a throwback Republican.
He's different. Making a big mistake. They all make that mistake. You know, they think they're going to be the tough guy, and they're going to knock out Trump, and they end up getting the hell beat out of them. So, I don't know. I mean, I can't tell you Pierre. I just don't know. I don't like what he's saying about me. He's just not positive about me. And we've done a great job.
We got elected when, I would say, the odds were pretty much against -- I always felt -- you know, it's very interesting. People say the greatest comeback in political history, like you said, and I don't even view it as a comeback. The election of 2020 was rigged. It was a rigged election, totally rigged election.
And I don't forget that either. Totally rigged. But this one was much bigger. I will say, a lot of people say that historically, this is so much bigger than if I had done it the more traditional way.
You know, a lot of people who played a significant role in that election, particularly on the tech side of things, have come around to support you. How much do you --
Unbelievable. Yeah. I had dinner with Jeff Bezos last night.
How much do you trust someone like Jeff Bezos or one of these billionaires to be truly in that --
Who do I trust? I mean, who do you trust? Do you trust anybody? These are very smart guys. And I always say to them -- we have dinners together, usually started by them. I'm so busy with all of this between China, Russia, Ukraine. I've got more things happening. But I always love to just sort of look at them and say, "Hi. Where do you come from?" "I came from Hawaii to have dinner." That was good.
I said, "Would you have been here if I lost?" You know, I was -- "Would you have been here if I lost it?" They never answer that question. Actually, they just sort of shy away from it.
If you trust him -- do you trust him? He just paid a lot of money for James Bond. Do you trust him to make him great again?
Who paid a lot of money? Did he?
Jeff Bezos --
[Crosstalk]
Oh, did he buy the James Bond series?
Yes. He bought the rest of the franchise. He bought it away from the Broccoli family, so he has total control. He's asking Twitter, he's asking X what they want in the next James Bond.
That's interesting. Well, James Bond -- did he pay a lot?
Yes. Undisclosed, but rumors of a billion.
Yeah. So, it's a lot. I like him. I tell you what, I like these guys, but I have to -- so when you ask about the difference, so the first time, these guys were bitter enemies. I never even understood it. I didn't know him. I didn't know Zuckerberg. I didn't know Jeff. I didn't -- when you look at the inauguration, it was a who's who of every single one of them, every single guy who was there, but every single person was here.
Their priorities, though, and the kind of populist priorities of your voters don't necessarily align on everything.
Probably.
So, are you going to have to tell them no on some of the things that they're going to ask of you?
Sure. I just do what's right. You know, I have a lot of money. I don't need money. I don't need anything. One of the things we're doing over here is very interesting. I'm a very good developer. I do it really good. You can ask a lot of people. I mean, I did it really well for a long time, and they've always needed a ballroom here.
It's big. You know, it's complicated because of the architectural structures and the architectural heritage of the White House. And one of the things I'm going to do -- and it was sort of interesting. "Who gets to approve it?" "You do, sir." I said, "I do?" Normally, I have to go to zoning. You know, I go through the zoning, and I've always been a king of zoning.
I get whatever, but I do good work. So, one of the things I'm going to do is build a beautiful, magnificent ballroom at the White House, beautiful ballroom. They always wanted to have a -- hey, get me the picture -- there's a picture of a ballroom that I have. You show. And it keeps my real estate juices flowing.
But it'll be beautiful. But they've always wanted a ballroom. You know, they only have the East Room, which is really very small.
You know, one thing that's been interesting, I'm just looking at this picture of the Gulf, you've had some very positive, I think, reaction to the things you've been saying about Panama. Do you think that more people should be looking -- from America, more businesses should be looking to invest in Panama versus perhaps Mexico or something like that?
Well, I had a very bad experience in Panama. I built a building there with a group, and it was a beautiful building. It's the tallest building in South America. And the government -- this was probably 13 years ago. The government was very difficult. And the building was successful. I made a lot of money on it, but basically --
Mar-a-Lago ballroom?
Yeah. Look at this. So, it'll be something like that inside.
Well, that'll be quite the place.
That's what they're -- they're looking for that so badly for years. You know, they put tents up on the lawn. You can't really --
Yeah. I know, I know. I've seen them do it before.
And a tent is not good.
Especially with fancy people in high heels trying to walk across the grass.
Yeah. Plastic.
And soft plastic.
She knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Yes.
And soft plastic. Well, I'll go -- another one. Let me give you then as long as -- so, you've been here many times. You see the grass outside, right?
Yeah.
So, we're going to make that into a stone surface because you can't have it -- yesterday, we had a lot of press here because of -- for the obvious, right?
It just turns into mud.
They can't stand on it. So, we're doing a beautiful -- it's going to be beautiful. It's going to look -- I think it's actually going to look better. But some people would like to leave it. But the problem is you can't. We had the press here yesterday. Do you see the women there? They're going crazy. The grass was wet.
Their heels are going right through the grass, like four inches deep. It was -- so we're going to make that into a beautiful --
Can I ask you a question about the press? There's an anchor named Jake Tapper you may have heard of.
Yeah, yeah.
I recall an interaction that he had with your daughter-in-law about Joe Biden's mental decline, where he accused her of mocking his stutter. And now, he's announced just the other day that he has a new book on the whole thing.
Bad timing.
Is it wrong for him to profit from a conspiracy that he was basically part of?
Yeah. I thought that interchange -- because I saw it yesterday. I thought -- you know, she's an amazing person. She's very smart, very -- I actually put her in charge of the RNC along with Michael Whatley. And she's really -- and nobody complained about nepotism. You know, she's such a smart person and got the job done, finished it up. And she said, "Dad, now I want to go back home." You know, didn't want to stay and have fun.
She could have been a senator very easily in North Carolina if she wanted that. In fact, Ted Budd, who's doing a great job, but he said, "I'm not running if she runs." Nobody could have beaten her. She's amazing. But I watched that interchange, and I thought her attitude was so cool. You know, the attitude of just amazement that a man could do this and he could say -- well, he's lost tremendous credibility, but everybody has.
Yeah. I mean, Margaret Brennan the other day, interacting with Secretary Rubio, saying that the Holocaust was caused by free speech. I mean, what do you think when you see something like that?
Margaret Brennan. I call it Deface the Nation. Margaret Brennan is like anybody on the street that you could take and say, "Go in and ask a few questions." That was so bad.
It's embarrassing.
I don't get it. How do you hire some of these people?
Well, it's also embarrassing how quickly -- I mean, you saw the "60 Minutes" reaction to what the vice president was saying about German censorship. They do this whole thing defending German censorship. If you're someone like me in media, it feels like they're just leaning into the idea that if they ever get the reins of power again, they're just going to censor Americans again.
They're just going to propagandize like they have. How do you prevent something like that?
Well, first, Jake and then "60 Minutes" because I got to tell you about "60 Minutes." It was amazing. But how anybody could have said that he's at the top of his game -- and let me tell you, if you're not at the top of your game -- and I know people that are much older than him that are at the top of their game.
I know people that are older than him that I've known for a long time, and they're sharper at 88 than they were when they were 58. But he's not. And, you know, I know all of his opponents, the heads of every country. I've gotten to know all of them very well. They're all at the top of their game. And you can't have that.
That's why we're in this war. That's why Afghanistan happened, which, as you said, led to a lot of problems beyond even Afghanistan, including the deaths and all of the horrible -- you know, we had 42 soldiers without legs or arms, the face was -- nobody ever talks about them. And we had the 13 that died.
How a legitimate journalist can try and stick up for that. And I watched him, and he looked so stupid, you know.
Well, a lot of people definitely did.
The only thing I can say about him is he did the debate, and he was very, very fair. And so was Dana. Or is Dana, as you would call her. So was Dana.
But they both also looked a bit surprised by what they were seeing play out in front of them.
Yeah. But they were still -- I was very surprised because, you know, I took that debate knowing it was CNN and knowing I had two very, very hostile anchors. I think you're great, too. I love watching you. I love watching you on television.
I appreciate it.
You have some good guys you work with, too.
I do. One more --
Yeah. It's so hard to believe that these guys could keep their credibility. So, let me ask you. So, we go to the debate, and I walk in, and I sort of look -- he wasn't looking good. But then he had a lot of white, very white, too white, you know. If he did better in the debate, would he have been changed or not?
If he was normal in the debate, would it have changed, or was the debate -- he blames the debate for the reason he had to get out.
Yeah.
That was -- it was just too bad.
Yeah. Well, I think that's one of the reasons why he actually looked pretty happy when you met him after the election.
But I asked him. You know, I went to the White House a few months before this all happened. I guess I had one and not just the one sit-down before. But I went there, and he asked for a meeting. And I went, and we talked for a little while. And at first, I couldn't -- you couldn't -- he talked so low. And then he started getting more -- and I asked him.
I said, "So, who do you blame?" Because he was very angry. You know, he was a very angry guy, actually. And he said, "I blame Barack." And I never think of him as Barack. You know, you always hear Obama. You say -- you have to think about that for a second. And he said, "And I also blame Nancy Pelosi." I said, "What about the vice president?" He said, "No, I don't blame her," which was interesting.
He didn't blame her. He blamed -- he told me he blamed those two people.
And yet they're still in charge of that party, it seems like. You know, you took a party that was, you know, really floundering and had just done the autopsy a couple of years earlier, and you turned it around. I know that they're not going to listen to whatever advice you give them, but what advice would you give Democrats about what they should be doing?
Well, I actually gave the Republicans advice the other day. Don't keep harping on all these incredible things that we have. Just save it for the election, you know, because you don't want them to change. [Audio gap] a lot of people talked about inflation or the economy. I put the open border as the No. 1 issue.
Well, let's talk about that for a minute. You have -- obviously, your State Department at your direction has now named -- done something that I and a lot of others believe needed to happen a long time ago, which was name these major cartel groups as foreign terror organizations.
Correct. Which they are.
That obviously triggers a bunch of things in terms of going after their assets, etc.
Right.
Are you going to hold to account a lot of these corrupt politicians who profited from that human trafficking, from pouring fentanyl in?
They did.
Including leading Mexican [Crosstalk]
Well, certainly, I would recommend that they be looked at. You know, certainly, it's going to be up to Pam Bondi, who's excellent at what she does. But there's been so much --
Would you consider kinetic action in Mexico?
There is -- well, I'd rather not tell you that because somehow --
Yeah. [Inaudible] I have to ask anyway.
I'd love to tell you. You know, it's so interesting. Sometimes, you'll be asked, like, a question like that, and you want to give an answer because you don't want to have somebody walk out and say -- but if you give the answer, it's a disaster. If you give a truthful answer --
It always reminds me of the SNL sketch where the guy says, in the Gulf War, "Where are your tanks? And can I go see them?"
That's right. Exactly. We have a lot of that.
By the way, Shane Gillis is hosting SNL this weekend. Are you a fan? You met him at the Super Bowl, I think.
Yeah.
Are you a fan?
Well, he's a very good -- I mean, on our side, right?
He definitely -- yes. I profiled him when he was at his lowest point, when he had just gotten fired from SNL. I profiled him when he was playing to a club of, like, fifty people in Maryland.
Is Shane Gillis doing very well now?
I think he's the best. He's one of the top comics in the --
And he's been on our side?
Yeah.
And I like him, and I like everybody that's on my side. You know, I'm just old-fashioned in that way. I like those people. And we have a lot of people. We have more people than anybody understands. You know, this whole MAGA movement is --
Well, you changed things culturally. Everybody is talking -- everybody talks about the vibe shift. But it's very clearly a difference, a change. And that's not just people motivated by what you're doing politically, like my wife, like the MAHA moms.
Right, right.
You know, it's also people culturally who feel they finally say things. I remember when -- my father's Puerto Rican, when Tony went out there and gave that joke, that silly joke, and people were saying for the next 48 hours, that was like the end. I was like, "I'm not offended by that joke. I wanted you to get cleaned up, too." Anyway.
No. It just --
See, the sad part about that was it turned out to be nothing, and I didn't think it was going to be much, but they made such a big deal. That was just --
They were desperate at that point.
They were desperate. But they took that joke. But the big thing was that I could have sold out Madison Square Garden 10 times. You were there?
No, I was not at that one. But I was at many of your other events.
But you saw. You know, I had a picture. I have to show you. I had a picture that -- of a stadium that I did two weeks before in Milwaukee. And I said, "Look at this." But we've had 107,000, 111,000. In Butler, we had 100,000 for the second time, 55,000 when you got -- I get that throbbing feeling. Wait, let me get this.
I mean, this is the average crowd. Did you see this? I just look at pictures of throwing away some stuff. Of course, I have to be careful about throwing anything away. They want to put you in prison. You know, if you write a note and you don't like it because it looks bad or something, and if you rip it up, throw it away, Jack Smith will want to put you in prison.
And by the way, he didn't end up so good.
No. Well, we had a little experience with him in Virginia with Bob McDonnell, too. That didn't end up too good.
He destroyed that guy.
He destroyed him.
And Bob McDonnell, were you friendly with him?
Yes, very much so.
He's a high-quality guy. The wife is --
Yeah. But not the wife.
She was a mess. How he stayed with her --
Yeah.
I assume he eventually left, right?
Yeah. I think that they are now split.
[Three asterisks in the published transcript indicate there is an edit at this point in the interview.]
Look at this. Look at that picture. I mean, that's serious, right?
That's phenomenal. Wow.
That was just -- that's a routine crowd. Look at this. This was in New Jersey. I just see these pictures.
Well, see, I think this is part of that vibe shift that I mentioned.
Look at this.
You know, one thing in particular --
Look at the crowd. That's not --
One thing in particular, though, that I think sticks out to me on this is that not all of those people, I think, they agree with the vast majority of what you're doing, but they also came to you through different avenues this time. The podcast election, I mean, it was just amazing to see it play out. And I remember people saying at the beginning, you know, "Is this risky?" But, I just -- I think that it's what --
You mean it was risky doing them.
Risky doing so many of them because --
You know, it was interesting. They were all good.
Not all the politicians can do that.
They wouldn't. Well, she didn't do it.
All the comms staff on Capitol Hill were like, you know, "What is he doing going on all these things?"
Because I was leading.
And I was like, you need to know who these guys are because they've replaced the old media. They've replaced the legacy media, and they have bigger followings. CNN is background, OK? When people tune into these, they are listening to them. They're watching them on YouTube, on their own TVs. I watch Barstool Sports content every week on my television, you know.
Is that a hot one now? Is that a --
Yes. I mean --
It's doing well.
Yeah. It's done very well.
He's been good to me, I think.
Dave Portnoy? Yeah.
Say hello to him. He's been great.
Yeah. But the question I have about that is --
By the way, Joe Rogan. So, I do Joe Rogan. And it was three hours and 15 minutes, and it caused a little problem because, you know, I was doing a thing in Michigan. I started speaking at 12 in the evening, and not a person left. It would have been a room just like that. Not a person left. And I explained, "Hey, I just did Joe Rogan.
You know, we got to win this thing." So, we actually told them, "I'm doing Joe Rogan. Can you wait?" Nobody left. There was unbelievable spirit. But my son, who's just 18, Barron, he goes, "Dad, you got to do this one and that one." And he's telling me names.
Well, clearly, it worked.
It worked.
But also, you know --
But TikTok worked, too.
Also, I want to ask you, there is a new podcaster out there, Gavin Newsom, who has decided that he's going to launch. Do you think he'll be a good podcaster? Or do you think California would be better off if he did that full-time?
I don't know. Is he doing a podcast as governor?
Yes.
I don't know what to tell you on that. I mean, you never know.
Would you go on?
Sure. Look, so I did Joe Rogan, and I never even thought about not doing it. She wouldn't do it. And, you know, I got 250 million people for Joe Rogan. You saw that. That was his biggest ever by far. And he was a great --
I've been listening to him for years.
He was great.
It depends on the guest, but --
Yeah. He was a great guy.
You hear a lot about the Comanche if you listen regularly enough.
You know, I guess he was a Democrat. I don't think he is anymore. But, you know, two words I mention, common sense, a lot lately. And I never heard those words used politically. I hope I brought them into the forefront, but it's really about common sense. You don't want open borders. You don't want prisons emptied out into your country.
You don't want insane asylums dropped. Remember, I used to mention the name Hannibal Lecter a lot, and the press would say, "Why would he mention? That's a fictitious…" The people know why. They don't want him in the country.
So, I have to ask the question on my wife's behalf because, like I said, she is a MAHA mom. She is very happy that RFK is in the position that he is, but she also is angry about the fact that Joe pardoned so many people, including Dr. Fauci, on the way out.
Yeah.
And she wants there to be accountability, culpability, people being held to account for the bad decisions that they made, the bad advice they gave. And that, you know, extends -- I mean, it extends all the way to China, really, you know, in terms of the ramifications of what they unleashed. But what can be done to hold these people accountable, make sure that they don't get away with this?
There's so many governments, including around the world, that reopened their schools before we did, that figured this stuff out before we did. You know, we were way behind because of all of these people, and that has a permanent effect. It scarred a generation of kids who had to stay home. I mean, I know some of those kids who have development disorders now, you know, who are basically non-verbal.
How can the policy --
Yeah. And a lot of this because they were so far behind even educationally. So, it's very interesting. You know, the federalist system is like you let the governor decide. I let all the governors decide. You know, I had governors that kept them open 100 percent of the time. South Carolina did. Tennessee did.
We had a lot of them. South Dakota, she did a good job. The Democrats were the ones that did it, and they kept it going very long, long after I was gone. I mean, I was gone long, and everything was closed, and it was ridiculous. But I had many that were open that were Republicans. Some of the Republicans did a good job.
I don't think any of the Democrats did a good job. They all kept it closed.
Yeah. Well, and they paid the price for it, I think, in this election. I think that they --
I think they did. They paid it here.
Yeah.
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I love this cover, Ben.
Yeah. I was going to ask you to sign it for me at the end.
You want me to what?
I was going to ask you to sign it for me at the end.
Oh, I will do it. Yes. Can I have one for my wife?
Yes, absolutely.
I'd love that. Yeah.
So, who actually left the cocaine in the White House?
Who what?
Who left the cocaine in the White House?
Well, either Joe or Hunter. Could be Joe, too, OK? So, that was such a terrible thing because, you know, those bins are very loaded up with -- they're not clean, and they have hundreds and even thousands of fingerprints. And when they went to look at it, it was absolutely stone-cold, wiped dry. You know that, right?
See? Well, because, I mean, I was briefly, you know, a Bush speechwriter and staff person. And so, I knew exactly what they were talking about. And I was like, "Those things are filthy."
They're filthy. And there were fingerprints. I mean, if you went to one, maybe we're cleaner, but if you went to one at any time, you would see hundreds. Everybody in there would leave a fingerprint. When they went in, that thing was wiped out with the strongest form of alcohol.
That's hilarious. Well, not hilarious. Sad.
By the way -- and I have to tell you, I think I'm going to look into that because it was -- bad stuff happened there.
[Three asterisks in the published transcript indicate there is an edit at this point in the interview.]
You know, one of the things that came out -- you know, has obviously come out is the prework that was done via the Aspen Institute and the intel community to basically cue up, "Hey, there's going to be something that comes out late, and it's going to be related to probably Hunter and, you know, money from overseas, and it's going to be a Russian op." And some of the funding for that, of course --
They're sick.
Has been found via DOGE. Thank you for letting DOGE out.
By the way, how good is that? Did you see where Stacey Abrams got $2 billion? Can you imagine?
Oh, gosh. Look, I've lived in this area, around the swamp, for almost two decades. And like I said, the fear that is among the bureaucratic class right now of being exposed for how little work they do.
But you didn't know it was this crooked.
Oh, no. I mean --
How about the newly formed corporation, Environmental Protection? Lee Zeldin. $20 billion put in, $20 billion. And people don't know. People don't know what that is. They think it's $20,000. They don't know. You can't explain $20 billion. That's massive money. That's -- $20 billion was put in, and they think it could be $60 billion.
The numbers are staggering.
The funny thing about government and when people start talking about taxpayer money being wasted is they always talk about it in percentages. They always say, "Oh, it's only 1 percent." One percent is a lot of money, OK? And it's a lot more than 1 percent. And if you add it up and add it up and add it up --
They think it's going to be close to $1 trillion, right? And that's pretty good stuff. You know, when you --
Was it more important for you to use that to balance the budget than to do other things?
Well, I think a big sleeper is going to be this gold card, you know. It's an idea I had. I think this could be a very big sleeper. Do you know, if you sell, let's say, a million at 5 million, that's $5 trillion? The budget's almost going to be balanced. You know, it's not going to be that far short. It's going to make $5 trillion.
That's part of -- you know, that's part of the --
How do you ensure that that's something that doesn't get exploited by the wrong people?
Well, it's so simple. You know, the other stuff, the different programs, you put money in, and you can build a building, and you get a mortgage and this and that, oh, yeah, yeah, you can imagine what's going on. I think we're going to terminate the program. They say it's just so terrible. This is very simple.
Five million, and you have a path to citizenship. You essentially get a green card plus. It's a green card plus. It's a gold card. And you have a plan. If we did a million, it's a lot. Now, if we did 10 million, that's $50 trillion, 10 million. You know, if that thing exploded, you had people that would pay that.
I have people all the time begging me to help them get into the country. Some of them are very wealthy people. They'd pay that in two minutes.
Are you surprised by how quickly your policy impacted -- I've known Bill Melugin for a long time. I've been to Eagle Pass many times. Are you surprised by how quickly your policies impacted the border? It just completely shut down in the space of weeks.
You mean in a couple of weeks? No, because I did it before, but now there was more focus, a little bit more focus on it. But I did it before. Remember the chart that I turned on the right? Can you get me that chart? I mean, you've seen it a thousand times.
Yeah. I've seen it.
That's my all-time favorite chart. No, if I didn't turn right, that's it. There was nobody over there. They had 55,000 people here. I'm not looking to the right. I looked to the right because the chart was coming down off a crane or something. But it was a good chart. Show it.
There we go.
So, the arrow on the bottom, that was my last week in office. You saw the --
She's printing something for me. I'm so honored.
They do. These two do a good job. Look at that one back there. She's done a great job.
No, I just knew her --
By the way, she's -- how do you like the job that our new superstar is doing? What do you think?
Oh, I think she's fantastic, I think. Well, look, I've been around. The first press secretary that I met was Tony Snow because he ran the White House Bible study, actually, when I was here.
Did he die, or is he still --
Yes. He passed away.
He died.
Yeah.
And he was pretty good, right?
He was quite good. But he also -- he was very nice, but he was very firm with people. He was very -- and what I like about you is you never really seem to get as angry when you're doing it. It's almost like you enjoy it. It's an enjoyable combat.
Yes.
I think she loves it.
I do.
And that's, I think, really important because not everybody -- some people, they just get angry. You know, I still make fun of Sean Spicer for getting angry at me on the phone once when I was warning him that having John Harwood moderate a debate -- all of you remember that one all the way back in 2015.
Was he the worst, John? Was John Harwood --
I was -- we got into a yelling match because I was saying, "Sean, he's going to ruin this debate." And then the first question he asks you is, "Are you a comic book villain?"
Right. That's right. Remember that?
Yeah.
He was so bad. It actually was good for me, you know.
Yeah. No, it worked out. It worked out.
It worked out good. But he was a bad guy. He was almost like a counterspy. I think she's going to be amazing. So far, she's --
Happy warriors are the best workers to the press because they get frustrated with you.
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But look at that. So, if you look at that arrow, that's when I left. Look what happened after I left, like a rocket. But you have to say it's impressive what they've done. The border is essentially closed.
Remain is obviously not a long-term solution. It was an immediate kind of solution in your first term. What do you view as the long-term solution to make sure that Mexico handles this problem?
I would rather not tell you that. You know why.
OK.
Because you know what the only solution is.
[Three asterisks in the published transcript indicate there is an edit at this point in the interview.]
So, one last question. The Philadelphia Eagles, you said you were going to invite them.
They're invited.
That's part of the vibe shift I was talking about. So, fans of the NFL right now, I don't know if you're familiar with this because you watch the game, but there's been this whole debate about the main play that they run, the Tush Push.
Oh, yeah. Right.
Are you familiar with this?
Right.
Yes. So, they're debating whether they should ban it or not. One side says, "Ban it. It's an almost unstoppable play." The other side says, "So, you got to stop it." Which side are you on?
Yeah. I wouldn't ban it. But what I would ban is this horrible kickoff rule, this new kickoff rule. That is so bad.
Yeah. It's a weird rule.
It is so bad.
It looks weird.
First of all, it's the opposite of football. Second of all, it's actually more dangerous because you're actually going into each other without any defense or anything. It's much more dangerous. It is so terrible. You know, in football, when the ball moves, you're supposed to be moving. This ball is up in the air, and they're all saying -- it is so horrible to watch that.
And I told that to Roger Goodell.
I know you're such a huge fan. I love -- I collect old USFL stuff.
Oh, that's great.
And I'm just curious, do you think the game is better now than it ever has been, or is there something you'd change?
Well, look, they got big ratings in the Super Bowl, right? It was -- it should have -- it was not a good game, but it was -- well, it was a good game if you like football.
I was there in Philadelphia as a Washington fan for the NFC Championship, and that game was actually more [Inaudible].
Unbelievable. And how good is the quarterback, right? Boy. When you can draft a young quarterback, it's like gold. You take a guy who's great in college, and he turns out to be no good. I mean -- and then you'll take somebody like, in San Francisco, that kid.
Yeah.
He was the last draft choice. He wasn't Brady. He was six runs back. He was literally the last guy in the draft and --
Mr. Irrelevant becomes --
He moves the ball, right? You know, it's one of those things. They're coming here. What I'm doing -- Philadelphia is coming here. And Kansas City, when they won the Super Bowl during COVID, you couldn't have them here. Virtually, you couldn't have it. It was too bad. And I said, "You know what? I should really invite them for that." And I told them.
They want to come. By the way, they really want to come.
Yes, sir. They do.
You know who came? The kicker came today. He's a Trump fan. He's a nice guy. Great kicker. And he came. But we said -- he said, "Yeah, we missed it because of the COVID." I said, "Well, let's do it." So, we're going to have Philadelphia. When is Philadelphia coming?
I believe next month, the end of April.
If you want to come, come. Are you a fan? Are you a Philadelphia fan?
No, I am a Washington fan, but I --
You can still come.
So, how good is the Washington quarterback?
Jayden Daniels is incredible. I hope that one of the things you can build here while you're here in the next four years is even if -- whatever it takes, I mean, if it takes giving D.C. back to Maryland, you know, to get rid of Bowser or something like that. But the fact that they could maybe play at RFK again with this quarterback in my lifetime, I mean --
So, locationally, you love not the stadium. You would rip down the stadium.
Rip down the stadium, build a new stadium.
But you love that location?
I think that location --
It's so beautiful when you're driving up.
It is beautiful, but it needs so much investment. But it could be as good as what is around Navy Yard and Nats Park and everything that we see over there.
The site is great.
The site is great, but it needs a lot of work.
Does that have train service?
Near it? Yes, yes.
It has trains?
Yeah, the Metro.
What I love is you're driving up, and it's -- you know, it splits the road.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
OK. Now, you're not talking about keeping the stadium.
No, get rid of the stadium. Build another stadium.
You're talking about -- in other words, you'd like to have it built in Washington.
I would like it to be built on that site.
So, should I take over the government of D.C.?
If that's the outcome, not only would I be in favor of it, but virtually every Washington fan would be in favor of it.
And most people that live in Washington.
Oh, yeah. Oh, they want the investment. They want --
It's so sad.
It's a pathetic fact that it's not there.
Well, we're trying to do it. We're trying to do it. We're looking at doing it.
Josh Harris, the owner, really wants to do it.
It's so bad. He's a nice guy, by the way, the owner. I met him. You know, I went to a game. He is -- that kid was really good.
Oh, yeah.
Wasn't he second in draft pick?
He was.
And who was first?
So, the first draft pick, Caleb Williams, is in Chicago. But the reason that he wasn't good was not his fault. It's that he had a terrible coach and a terrible offense.
But do you think he's got -- could he be as good as Daniels?
I don't think so. I think Daniels is a generational talent.
He was just a natural, man, the way he flicks.
He's so calm. It's like he was built for this. And part of this, too, keep in mind is, because of COVID, these guys, and the same with the quarterback out in Denver, Bo Nix, they got extra years.
So, how good is Nix?
Nix is very good.
Isn't he like 25 or 26?
Yeah.
That was unusual.
So, it's very unusual. But the point is they got like five seasons of starting, you know, and that made a huge difference.
Will Nix be -- is Nix as good as Daniels?
No, I don't think so, not physically as --
Almost. Nobody is, right? The guy from Texas, how about him? He might be better.
We'll have to see.
You know what I mean.
Yeah. No, we'll have to see.
How about you gave him up for the No. 1 guy in Alabama who's very little and who is not making it?
Yeah. No, I don't think so.
They took him second, Sprague or whatever his name is. It's interesting.
Arch Manning, the thing about Arch Manning is people will be disappointed on any pass when he doesn't throw a touchdown.
How good is he? I was talking about Texas in the NFL, the quarterback.
You mean C.J. Stroud in Houston?
Stroud. How good is he?
Well, he had an excellent first season, but then the second season, he took a step back.
So, would you take Daniels then over him?
I would because -- in part because Daniels is just -- he can do everything in terms of the physical capability of movement. And the other thing is this was not a very good team.
So, what about the owner? He sells the team. He did great. He got $6 billion. And, you know, he's always been nice to me. He always supported me.
Yeah, the whole movie thing.
Yeah, he did fine. He did -- look, he made a lot of money with the team, OK? So, that's good. But the team didn't work. But he sells the team, and they end up with Daniels as a quarterback. Would he have had Daniels as the quarterback? Probably.
Certainly would have.
Did his guys make the pick?
No. There was a whole new crew of general [Inaudible] --
So, it might not have been Daniels.
So, he might not have done that. He might have botched that.
No, because all those years, he fought like -- I mean, he tried so hard.
We had a brief glimpse of it with RG3, and I was at the game where his knee was --
Who was great until he got hit about 15 times.
Yeah. But he was nowhere near as skilled as this guy in terms of throwing the ball.
Really? And is this guy tall?
Yes, but he's very lean. One of the reasons he went second is because he's very skinny. And the other quarterback who went before him, Caleb Williams, is more built like a normal --
So, you're a real fan, huh? That's great.
Oh, yeah. Well, some of my earliest memories are -- my earliest memory is actually the Reagan Challenger speech.
And you'd like to see the stadium built here.
I would, 100 percent.
All right. Good. Because, you know, the D.C. takeover, right? We're working on that, right?
We got to clean up the city.
Yeah. We have to.
The mayor, the tents --
You can't do it without cleaning up the city.
And it was great 10 years ago, right?
Yeah, it really was.
It was good during my administration. But the crime -- look, these are incompetent people, like her. How about the guy in Chicago?
Oh, my gosh. Seven percent of --
He's worse than the one from before.
He was at 7 percent.
Right? Now, he's at 4 percent. They had some -- and yet he'll beat some people. Do you understand that? Can you believe it?
Corruption.
He'll beat some people. So, you'd like to see that? Maybe we'll do that.
Yeah. OK.
I mean, I'm pretty busy.
Yeah. You got some other things on your plate.
[Three asterisks in the published transcript indicate there is an edit at this point in the interview.]
One little difference is they wanted to come, mostly. Many of them really wanted to come. But a couple of teams that canceled would have never canceled now.
Yeah. No, I don't think anybody would have canceled.
But when I heard, like, San Francisco basketball team, Curry, I heard a little rumor like they're going to take a vote. When I heard "take a vote," that means no good. So, I said, "You don't have to take a vote because you're no longer invited. Do not come under any circumstance." And it was cool. People said, "That's the coolest thing." They never got to take a vote because I could see the writing on the wall.
Now, it's much different. It's much different. I think it's -- all those guys are in love with Trump, and they all hated Trump. They would go through fire to destroy me. Now, it doesn't mean -- will they -- you know, you say, "Will they be loyal?" Who knows? But when I was a winner at the beginning, you know, then -- that was a big win.
They didn't come with me when I was winning. Now, they're at levels -- nobody's ever seen a dais like that, you know, the inauguration. Zuckerberg, this one, this one, that one, Microsoft, everybody, which is pretty cool.